Ngii Ndune
There is no reason to get emotional about this. But I would like to correct a few of your comments that you misrepresented.

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What a contradiction here,if norms are just but a negotiated social contract then let's renegotiate your opposition to bestiality too

I am open to this renegotiation if animals bring up the case to be allowed into the human society.

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As for consent that you write about it is a inter-genus social standard,hence according to your logic we have to redefine our social intra-genus social contracts! That's the tragedy with your logic here.

There is nothing wrong in renegotiating or redefining intra-genus social contracts if they were drafted on wrong premises. Unless this is done, then the disatisfied parties feel obliged to contravene them. This is the reason that widespread homosexuality goes on underground.

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A few years ago homosexuality was the abominable thing now some social elites are shoving down our throats through mass media

No social elite...whomever you perceive them to be is shoving anything down your throat. You are the one who is shoving your moral standards down their throats. All they they ask is you leave them alone and mind your own business.

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If the overwhelming majority says its wrong then it is. That is democracy for heavenly sakes!

The majority are not always right. The key component of universal human right deals with respect of individual freedom, as long as it does not subvert the freedom of others. No, the mob is not always right. A long time ago, an overwhelming majority in Kikuyuland belived FGM was ok. Galileo and Socrates were right. The majority were wrong

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By majority of 4 to 1 homosexuality is bad the individuals who practice it need treatment.

Muhuthia,
Isnt it better that we direct these energies elsewhere. We ar eyet to find the cure for AIDS, cancer and other diseaqses we allows vulnerable chidren to suffer in the street, people are going without food. Al all we can say is to treat normal people who are are not sick and pose no threat to us?

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Originally posted by sajini:

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We perceive intuitively that the natural sex partner of a human is another human, not an animal.

Wamax,
Naturalness is a subjective term. Sometimes, what is natural or unnatural is a matter of opinion. I do not believe we should trust intuition to tell us what is natural or not. The reason is that the boundary between intuition and emotion is very thin. Our emotional biases can act as scaffolds for paranoia. Either way, intuitions and emotions that promote discimination of fellow because of their orientation, that does not threaten them in any way, humans are wrong.

The intuition is also a scientific observation. Two men do not complement each other. Not unless one explores the back side of the other, and in that case the backside was meant for other purposes.

In the same way a man can never be a complement to a horse (too big/tall) or goat or chicken.

If you think homosexuality is natural, imagine a world where all men and women are homosexual. Would nature have been so disordered as to create a trait that can exterminate a whole species? Do you know traits that exterminate or are capable of exterminating a species are called? DISEASES!

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Originally posted by sajini:
Ngii Ndune
There is no reason to get emotional about this. But I would like to correct a few of your comments that you misrepresented.

Sajini,
Wow how would you know that I was emotional? Which type of emotions did I have? Dissuade me from thinking that you happen to think that you work us up here and every post is made by emotionally deranged and irrational beings,unlike you the calm and composed being!That epitomizes the patronage that begets us as a society!God help us!

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What a contradiction here,if norms are just but a negotiated social contract then let's renegotiate your opposition to bestiality too

I am open to this renegotiation if animals bring up the case to be allowed into the human society.
Where I come from, a contract is between two parties,so either party can bring it up;not unless due process doesn't apply where you are opposed to issues. For consent since animals mate all the time without us (homo sapiens) giving them consent,let's us find a big,big jail for all animals.Am deeply disappointed in you,I was willing to take it all way let there be homosexuality,bestiality and any other form of deviant sexual activity.

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As for consent that you write about it is a inter-genus social standard,hence according to your logic we have to redefine our social intra-genus social contracts! That's the tragedy with your logic here.

There is nothing wrong in renegotiating or redefining intra-genus social contracts if they were drafted on wrong premises. Unless this is done, then the disatisfied parties feel obliged to contravene them. This is the reason that widespread homosexuality goes on underground.
Widespread?! Oh my goodness!Am assuming then you have the data to prove that majority of us are indeed are whatever you label them closet.. One thing is for sure you are DEAD WRONG.In California (one of the most liberal states) the closet gays must have voted against gay marriage yet left the private voting booth to practice homosexuality!What a lack of logic!

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A few years ago homosexuality was the abominable thing now some social elites are shoving down our throats through mass media

No social elite...whomever you perceive them to be is shoving anything down your throat. You are the one who is shoving your moral standards down their throats. All they they ask is you leave them alone and mind your own business.
Check a few posts back and confirm who started this issue.This discussion was about polygamy,someone went off tangent to deliberately shove this issue down our throats.
Once again just like in Kimunya saga you sacrifice truth and facts for your own expediency,reasons unknown;it is sad.

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If the overwhelming majority says its wrong then it is. That is democracy for heavenly sakes!

The majority are not always right. The key component of universal human right deals with respect of individual freedom, as long as it does not subvert the freedom of others. No, the mob is not always right. A long time ago, an overwhelming majority in Kikuyuland belived FGM was ok. Galileo and Socrates were right. The majority were wrong[/QUOTE]
That is again democracy for you,that's why we have three arms of government to balance each other.When we have a minority wanting to mate with animals and so on;Let the whole society approve or disapprove of it! If the majority is not right what do you have to say about democracy that you so do rely on to put across your views? Should we let our all knowledgeable elites to legislate for us?The massively incompetent majority?

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If you think homosexuality is natural, imagine a world where all men and women are homosexual. Would nature have been so disordered as to create a trait that can exterminate a whole species? Do you know traits that exterminate or are capable of exterminating a species are called? DISEASES!

Wamax,
I am impressed and completely follow your logic here.Thank you for this piece and continue fighting for sanity and decency of the human race! Have a great new year!

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Originally posted by sajini:

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By majority of 4 to 1 homosexuality is bad the individuals who practice it need treatment.

Muhuthia,
Isnt it better that we direct these energies elsewhere. We ar eyet to find the cure for AIDS, cancer and other diseaqses we allows vulnerable chidren to suffer in the street, people are going without food. Al all we can say is to treat normal people who are are not sick and pose no threat to us?

Dear Sajini

Happy new year!

Facts have been presented. The choice to remain blinkered is a human right, is it?

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Facts have been presented. The choice to remain blinkered is a human right, is it?

Muhuthia,
Happy New year to you too

No fact hasd been presnted. It is only hegemonic opinions of self appointed moral cops

Is it also a right to belong to Taliban and Al qaeda?

@Ngii Ndune

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Wow how would you know that I was emotional?

Emotions are the greates enemy of rational argument

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Where I come from, a contract is between two parties,so either party can bring it up;not unless due process doesn't apply where you are opposed to issues.

Darn right!, but for it to be a valid contract, the other party must append their signature, without which the whole negotiation is null and void.

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In California (one of the most liberal states) the closet gays must have voted against gay marriage yet left the private voting booth to practice homosexuality!

Could be, Mark Foley and Larry Craig and Pastor Ted Arthurs Haggard have been the most anti-Gay voices in the US. Need I say more?

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Check a few posts back and confirm who started this issue.This discussion was about polygamy,someone went off tangent to deliberately shove this issue down our throats.
Once again just like in Kimunya saga you sacrifice truth and facts for your own expediency,reasons unknown;it is sad.

I was right on topic. My bringing up of homosexuality was to refute the claim that polygamy is justified on account of male/female ratio. Where would the rest of the women go, and my response was that there are same sex unions. You went off tangent by bringing up animals into the discussion. Remember that when pointing to others with a finger, three fingers are pointing at you.
As for Kimunya, I am unapologetic. He is a thief and deserve to be spending time somewhere else.

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Check a few posts back and confirm who started this issue.This discussion was about polygamy,someone went off tangent to deliberately shove this issue down our throats.
Once again just like in Kimunya saga you sacrifice truth and facts for your own expediency,reasons unknown;it is sad.

No it is not democracy, it is hegimony and tyranny, or you can call it mobocracy. That is why we have advocacy for human rights.

@Ngii Ndune

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Wow how would you know that I was emotional?

Emotions are the greates enemy of rational argument
Answer me,emotion is a generic term so which one can you tell I have here? Is it typical of you to know of other people's state of mind? You must be intensely gifted!
Emotion:A mental state that arises spontaneously rather than through conscious effort and is often accompanied by physiological changes; a feeling: the emotions of joy, sorrow, reverence, hate, and love.

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Where I come from, a contract is between two parties,so either party can bring it up;not unless due process doesn't apply where you are opposed to issues.

Darn right!, but for it to be a valid contract, the other party must append their signature, without which the whole negotiation is null and void.
Once again,it seems you're short on matters legal mister,for a contract to be binding it doesn't have to formalized on a piece of paper! Just as an example customary marriage duh?

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In California (one of the most liberal states) the closet gays must have voted against gay marriage yet left the private voting booth to practice homosexuality!

Could be, Mark Foley and Larry Craig and Pastor Ted Arthurs Haggard have been the most anti-Gay voices in the US. Need I say more?
So? Seriously,two or three incidences forms your base of arguments and you extrapolate that to billions? Scientific mind huh? This is typical of the same kind of naive judgement of societies.Yes, we are unlike the informed ones but who has appointed them to decide what is good and bad for the majority? Let the majority rule it is the best system to date.Until the elites invent another better system we'll be sticking to it!

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Check a few posts back and confirm who started this issue.This discussion was about polygamy,someone went off tangent to deliberately shove this issue down our throats.
Once again just like in Kimunya saga you sacrifice truth and facts for your own expediency,reasons unknown;it is sad.

I was right on topic. My bringing up of homosexuality was to refute the claim that polygamy is justified on account of male/female ratio. Where would the rest of the women go, and my response was that there are same sex unions. You went off tangent by bringing up animals into the discussion. Remember that when pointing to others with a finger, three fingers are pointing at you.
As for Kimunya, I am unapologetic. He is a thief and deserve to be spending time somewhere else.
You needn't be! I guess you must be more informed than Cockar and the highly revered co Judges,hence your name calling but that's for you.Your opinion is purely legitimate on your own terms.
No it is not democracy, it is hegimony and tyranny, or you can call it mobocracy. That is why we have advocacy for human rights.
Maybe we need to renegotiate democracy too!Advocacy for human rights exists only in democracy check china while you're at it!
Wow bestiality vs homosexuality--> correlation is obvious(unpopular uncouth and degeneratted forms of sexual perversion)
Polygamy vs homosexuality -->correlation is ....?

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Emotion:A mental state that arises spontaneously rather than through conscious effort and is often accompanied by physiological changes; a feeling: the emotions of joy, sorrow, reverence, hate, and love.

Did I see hate?

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Once again,it seems you're short on matters legal mister,for a contract to be binding it doesn't have to formalized on a piece of paper! Just as an example customary marriage duh?

Sure, but the parties involved must give ascent. A kikuyu and a Luo cannot be bound by similar customary laws. When it comes to people with different customary backgrounds, customary laws become inapplicable.

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So? Seriously,two or three incidences forms your base of arguments and you extrapolate that to billions?

Unless you live in a closet of self denial, the coming out parades in different places do not involve three people. FYI around 7-10% of the world population is gay. Shove it down your throat!

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Maybe we need to renegotiate democracy too!Advocacy for human rights exists only in democracy check china while you're at it!

Exactly what I have been trying to say all along. Glad you have began to see the light. Happy New year

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Wow bestiality vs homosexuality--> correlation is obvious(unpopular uncouth and degeneratted forms of sexual perversion)

Unpopular, with who? sexual perversion to who (only to the homophobes). I say it again: There is no comparison passions resort to such far-fetched relationships.

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Polygamy vs homosexuality -->correlation is ....?

satisfying the sexual libido of people. Some people cannot stomach the fact that a certain category of people cannot be subdued.

I GIVE UP!
THEY SAY NEVER ARGUE WITH A ...... PEOPLE MIGHT NOT NOTICE THE DIFFERENCE.GOOD PEOPLE ALL OVER THE WORLD WILL CONTINUE TO DO THE RIGHT THING.GOOD PEOPLE LIKE CALIFORNIANS AND SO ON.
In November 2008, 52.5 per cent of voters in California endorsed Proposition 8, which seeks to amend the state Constitution to define marriage as only between a man and a woman
The proponents argued for exclusively heterosexual marriage and claimed that failure to reverse a Supreme Court ruling from May 2008 that recognized a right of same-sex couples to marry(RING A BELL-SOCIAL ELITES?)would damage society, require changes to what was taught in schools about marriage, and threaten the free exercise of religion.
Many adults in the United States are against same-sex marriage, according to a poll by Opinion Research Corporation released by CNN. 55 per cent of respondents think marriages between gay and lesbian couples should not be recognized by the law as valid.

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i WILL FINISH FOR YOU ...
NEVER ARGUE WITH A PROFESSIONAL. PEOPLE NOTICE THE DIFFERENCE

Sajini na Ngii Ndune

Winning an arguement does not make one right just eloquent, it the fine mind that discerns.

Thought I should share this piece by Dr Cameron Chairman faimily research institute. www.familyresearchinst.org


Most of us fail to understand why anyone would want to engage in homosexual activity. To the average person, the very idea is either puzzling or repugnant. Indeed, a recent survey indicated that only 14% of men and 10% of women imagined that such behavior could hold any "possibility of enjoyment."
The peculiar nature of homosexual desire has led some people to conclude that this urge must be innate: that a certain number of people are "born that way," that sexual preferences cannot be changed or even ended. What does the best research really indicate? Are homosexual proclivities natural or irresistible?
At least three answers seem possible. The first, the answer of tradition, is as follows: homosexual behavior is a bad habit that people fall into because they are sexually permissive and experimental. This view holds rat homosexuals choose their lifestyle as the result of self-indulgence and an unwillingness to play by society rules. The second position is held by a number of psychoanalysts (e.g., Bieber, Socarides). According to them, homosexual behavior is a mental illness, symptomatic of arrested development. They believe that homosexuals have unnatural or perverse desires as a consequence of poor familial relations in childhood or some other trauma. The third view is "biological" and holds that such desires are genetic or hormonal in origin, and that there is no choice involved and no "childhood trauma" necessary.
Which of these views is most consistent with the facts? Which tells us the most about homosexual behavior and its origins? The answer seems to be that homosexual behavior is learned. The following seven lines of evidence support such a conclusion.
1) No researcher has found provable biological or genitic differences between heterosexuals and homosexuals that weren't caused by their behavior
2) People tend to believe that their sexual desires and behaviors are learned
3) Older homosexuals often approach the young
.
4) Early homosexual experiences influence adult patterns of behavior
5) Sexual conduct is influenced by cultural factors - especially religious convictions
6) Many change their sexual preferences

Modern economic circumstances are anti polygamy, because unlike in the past where wives were major contributors to the family socialeconomic status today the man is almost the sole determinant of a family's social and economic standing. Society and westernisation hasmen as bread winners and providers for the family. Therefore unlike our fore fathers more wives means less wealth.
To practice polygamy in the current setting is economic suicide

the reasons for polygamy in the past was manly wealth as a mans status was measured by the number of wives, children and cattle.

It was a mark of achievement to have many wives as one had ti have fields (ithaka) where the women and children would farm and feed themselvesand produce wealth.

Men preferred polygamy (Muhuthia?)because of sexual satisfaction/variety.
it was (is?) forbiden to lie with a woman during her days and also when breast feeding those with a single wife had to endure extended periods of draught after child birth!

Polygamy evolved to cater for the gender diparity relatively more girls than boys reach marriageable age than boys for various reasons. Though many girls get married as first wifves those left are always welcome as second or third wife for wealthy gentlemen. Today, show me a Gikuyu man who has not known a concubine in one form or the other and I will show you a man who has not known wealth.

With polygamy there is also safety and opportunity in numbers, besides the inborn natural duty to promote genes.

The reason we have soo many measerable men is because they have become subject of their wife, there is rationing in the matrimonial bed and pavlovian tactics are employed.

If polygamy is solution so be it but live your life.